Where are all of the bakers? (2024)

jim

This is a genuine question, and maybe a little bit of a rant, but in talking to others recently, it's clear I'm not the only one. I apologize to all the educators and students out there. I mean no disrespect, but I think there is something not being taught in the schools.

A couple weeks ago, I got into a conversation with a friend, mentor, peer and former employer. It seems he has the same concerns on the west coast as I do on the east. When we started 20 years ago, there was no education. The books were just starting to get published (The Village Baker, Bread Alone to name a few). I learned about fermentation reading brewing books, because there wasn't really anything else of substance. At least, published in English. If you wanted to make real bread, you got a job in a bakery, worked hard, put your head down, did what you were told.

Now, it seems there are educational opportunities, presumably training new bakers, but there are no bakers to hire! So, where are they? Who are these people in the schools? And, who are the teachers? Many years ago, an out of town baking teacher came into my bakery. He didn't know how to shape. Literally. To me, that's like a "chef" that can't dice an onion.

A couple days ago, I got into a conversation with a couple bakery owners here in RI. One of them commented that "the schools aren't producing bakers. They're producing pastry chefs." This, coming from someone with a crew of cake decorators on staff!

I currently have an ad running on Craigslist, looking for an overnight packer. A very important job in my bakery, and an easy foot in the door! In many ways, this person is responsible for my stores opening on time everyday. I received no less than 5 emails from kids attending, or having graduated, from a local culinary program. One was interested in whatever work we could give. The other 4 told me in no uncertain terms, that they were not interested in this job, but if a baking job came up to keep them in mind. One actually told me that "this job is not what I've been trained for". Now, over the years, I've had lots of kids in from this school. Not ONE has ever been able to do something as simple as shape a loaf of bread, so what is this training they speak of? I have a few graduates on staff currently. One has been with me for 6 years and is now running the place. It's not the education. It's work ethic that gets the job! That seems to be what is missing in education. Gussy it up all you want, baking is manual labor. If you don't know how to work, you won't make it in this industry. Is that taught? My friend with all the decorators says kids come in expecting to be the next Cake Boss. Huh? Are you kidding?

Whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up? Does this issue have nothing to do with baking and more to do with the entitlement our kids have these days? One of my guatemalens told me the other day, upon hearing about someone giving notice, "they (gringos??) don't care about the job". I don't know about that, I mean I'm a gringo and I've always cared about "the job", but the big difference between the hispanic community is that they aren't looking for the next thing. They're looking to do the job to the best of their ability, as you show them. Come back tomorrow and do it again. That was my basic attitude way back when, and I ended up running the last two bakeries I worked in until opening my own.

Oh, and the guy we'll likely hire for this position? He's a young kid with a high school education. His day job is in a machine shop. He's super excited about working in a bakery, and who knows, maybe, he'll end up a baker. Maybe, he'll just be happy to have a job. I think I'll be posting ads in general labor from now on.

Rant off,
Jim
Seven Stars Bakery
Providence, RI

Jim -

Great letter . We find the same thing here. The ex-terns and culinary
students do not know anything about baking or even "working with a
sense of purpose".
Very frustrating. This is a great profession if we can just get them to see it.

Shannon

--
Shannon Talty
Olde Hearth Bread Co.
207 Reece Way #1625
Casselberry, Fl 32707
407-834-8881

Kirk O'Donnell

Dear Jim,
I can appreciate your insight, even if it is the form of a rant. As an Educator for the past 21 years, I tend to agree with the notion that younger people tend to have different expectations of a job and career than my generation did "back in the day." I was always taught that the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary, and I think many persons' behaviors make me think that they don't share this belief.

In my opinion, there is no lack of baking and culinary schools to meet the needs of the industry. However, to be successful, a person needs passion for the job. I believe young people are also willing to work hard, but they need to catch the passion. Schools can focus on building knowledge and skills, but the passion comes from within. As persons interested in baking and the growth of our industry, we all have a role to play in the promotion of our work, our businesses, and our careers.

I am proud to be a baker, and these are some reasons why:
*Bakers feed the world, providing everyone their "daily bread."
*Bakers never go hungry.
*Bakery products run the gamut from nutritious to indulgent, so I can be proud of all of my products.
*Baking is an honest living that is needed and valued.
*The job is always challenging and never dull.
*Bakers tend to appreciate what they have, because they have earned it.

Respectfully,

Kirk O'Donnell
AIB International School of Baking
785-706-0132
"The purpose of Education is to replace an empty mind with an open one." Malcolm Forbes

From: breadbakersguild@... [mailto:breadbakersguild@...] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 10:02 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
Subject: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

This is a genuine question, and maybe a little bit of a rant, but in talking to others recently, it's clear I'm not the only one. I apologize to all the educators and students out there. I mean no disrespect, but I think there is something not being taught in the schools.

A couple weeks ago, I got into a conversation with a friend, mentor, peer and former employer. It seems he has the same concerns on the west coast as I do on the east. When we started 20 years ago, there was no education. The books were just starting to get published (The Village Baker, Bread Alone to name a few). I learned about fermentation reading brewing books, because there wasn't really anything else of substance. At least, published in English. If you wanted to make real bread, you got a job in a bakery, worked hard, put your head down, did what you were told.

Now, it seems there are educational opportunities, presumably training new bakers, but there are no bakers to hire! So, where are they? Who are these people in the schools? And, who are the teachers? Many years ago, an out of town baking teacher came into my bakery. He didn't know how to shape. Literally. To me, that's like a "chef" that can't dice an onion.

A couple days ago, I got into a conversation with a couple bakery owners here in RI. One of them commented that "the schools aren't producing bakers. They're producing pastry chefs." This, coming from someone with a crew of cake decorators on staff!

I currently have an ad running on Craigslist, looking for an overnight packer. A very important job in my bakery, and an easy foot in the door! In many ways, this person is responsible for my stores opening on time everyday. I received no less than 5 emails from kids attending, or having graduated, from a local culinary program. One was interested in whatever work we could give. The other 4 told me in no uncertain terms, that they were not interested in this job, but if a baking job came up to keep them in mind. One actually told me that "this job is not what I've been trained for". Now, over the years, I've had lots of kids in from this school. Not ONE has ever been able to do something as simple as shape a loaf of bread, so what is this training they speak of? I have a few graduates on staff currently. One has been with me for 6 years and is now running the place. It's not the education. It's work ethic that gets the job! That seems to be what is missing in education. Gussy it up all you want, baking is manual labor. If you don't know how to work, you won't make it in this industry. Is that taught? My friend with all the decorators says kids come in expecting to be the next Cake Boss. Huh? Are you kidding?

Whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up? Does this issue have nothing to do with baking and more to do with the entitlement our kids have these days? One of my guatemalens told me the other day, upon hearing about someone giving notice, "they (gringos??) don't care about the job". I don't know about that, I mean I'm a gringo and I've always cared about "the job", but the big difference between the hispanic community is that they aren't looking for the next thing. They're looking to do the job to the best of their ability, as you show them. Come back tomorrow and do it again. That was my basic attitude way back when, and I ended up running the last two bakeries I worked in until opening my own.

Oh, and the guy we'll likely hire for this position? He's a young kid with a high school education. His day job is in a machine shop. He's super excited about working in a bakery, and who knows, maybe, he'll end up a baker. Maybe, he'll just be happy to have a job. I think I'll be posting ads in general labor from now on.

Rant off,
Jim
Seven Stars Bakery
Providence, RI

This electronic transmission is strictly confidential and intended solely for the
addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized by the intended
recipient to receive this transmission, you must not retain, disclose or
distribute this transmission. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all
copies and backups thereof. Thank you.

Eric Baumgartner

Jim

You are not alone.

I am hearing this from bakers EVERY DAY!

The root cause of this is we have had a parenting mantra for the past 60
years that encourages every kid to become a doctor or a lawyer, not a
farmer or a baker. Doing hand work is considered lowbrow. When you
were a kid a few decades ago, you would watch Dad work on the family
car, taking out the spark plugs, adjusting the gaps, cleaning the air
filter and helping him pour in the oil. You were interested and got to
help Dad. Nowadays, most young people, my daughter included, have never
looked under the hood, heck she wouldn't remember how to open it and if
Dad were to work on the family car, Jr. Is either in the basem*nt
playing video games or on the lawn, texting his girlfriend. No
mechanical skills learned, no hand skills, just well exercised thumbs.

Here is what fellow BBGA member Solveig Tofte wrote in Volume 19, issue
2 (summer 2011)

One thing I've been thinking about is

the journey from bench worker to bakery

owner - a path many of you have taken,

a path many hope to take, and a path

many have decided to forego for all sorts

of very wise reasons. I've met and tried

to hire many people who swear to me all

they want to do is bake bread - they go on

about the passion, the love, the complete

satisfaction of pulling well-crafted loaves

out of the oven. And then I say, "Great!

Meet me here at 1 a.m.!" and their faces

fall, and they say, "Oh, no, I can't get up

that early!" and go on their way.

I have talked with many bakers who cannot grow because they cannot find
staff or staff is so flighty, that they are constantly training new
ones. Recently I was in a bakery where the Government came in and asked
"how many illegal aliens do you have?', they had 30 days and lost 8
bench people who had been with the bakery 10-15 years, 100 years of
bench experience went out the door.

This is a real problem not only in the United States and Canada but we
are hearing the same in Mexico, the Caribbean Islands and even in India.
I spoke with a baker in India who stated, "everyone around here wants IT
jobs, no one wants to be a baker". Therefore my company is busy, if I
could only find enough people to staff my business. FCOL

Kindest regards,

Eric Baumgartner
President, Owner
BLOEMHOF INC.
Toll Free 1-888-411-2131
Ph.: 1-780-476-2131
Fax.: 1-780-476-7813
E-mail: eric@... <mailto:eric@...>
Web Site: www.bloemhof.com <http://www.bloemhof.com>
Knead Help?

From: breadbakersguild@...
[mailto:breadbakersguild@...] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: May-11-12 9:02 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
Subject: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

This is a genuine question, and maybe a little bit of a rant, but in
talking to others recently, it's clear I'm not the only one. I apologize
to all the educators and students out there. I mean no disrespect, but I
think there is something not being taught in the schools.

A couple weeks ago, I got into a conversation with a friend, mentor,
peer and former employer. It seems he has the same concerns on the west
coast as I do on the east. When we started 20 years ago, there was no
education. The books were just starting to get published (The Village
Baker, Bread Alone to name a few). I learned about fermentation reading
brewing books, because there wasn't really anything else of substance.
At least, published in English. If you wanted to make real bread, you
got a job in a bakery, worked hard, put your head down, did what you
were told.

Now, it seems there are educational opportunities, presumably training
new bakers, but there are no bakers to hire! So, where are they? Who are
these people in the schools? And, who are the teachers? Many years ago,
an out of town baking teacher came into my bakery. He didn't know how to
shape. Literally. To me, that's like a "chef" that can't dice an onion.

A couple days ago, I got into a conversation with a couple bakery owners
here in RI. One of them commented that "the schools aren't producing
bakers. They're producing pastry chefs." This, coming from someone with
a crew of cake decorators on staff!

I currently have an ad running on Craigslist, looking for an overnight
packer. A very important job in my bakery, and an easy foot in the door!
In many ways, this person is responsible for my stores opening on time
everyday. I received no less than 5 emails from kids attending, or
having graduated, from a local culinary program. One was interested in
whatever work we could give. The other 4 told me in no uncertain terms,
that they were not interested in this job, but if a baking job came up
to keep them in mind. One actually told me that "this job is not what
I've been trained for". Now, over the years, I've had lots of kids in
from this school. Not ONE has ever been able to do something as simple
as shape a loaf of bread, so what is this training they speak of? I have
a few graduates on staff currently. One has been with me for 6 years and
is now running the place. It's not the education. It's work ethic that
gets the job! That seems to be what is missing in education. Gussy it up
all you want, baking is manual labor. If you don't know how to work, you
won't make it in this industry. Is that taught? My friend with all the
decorators says kids come in expecting to be the next Cake Boss. Huh?
Are you kidding?

Whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up?
Does this issue have nothing to do with baking and more to do with the
entitlement our kids have these days? One of my guatemalens told me the
other day, upon hearing about someone giving notice, "they (gringos??)
don't care about the job". I don't know about that, I mean I'm a gringo
and I've always cared about "the job", but the big difference between
the hispanic community is that they aren't looking for the next thing.
They're looking to do the job to the best of their ability, as you show
them. Come back tomorrow and do it again. That was my basic attitude way
back when, and I ended up running the last two bakeries I worked in
until opening my own.

Oh, and the guy we'll likely hire for this position? He's a young kid
with a high school education. His day job is in a machine shop. He's
super excited about working in a bakery, and who knows, maybe, he'll end
up a baker. Maybe, he'll just be happy to have a job. I think I'll be
posting ads in general labor from now on.

Rant off,
Jim
Seven Stars Bakery
Providence, RI

David Lohrentz

I think the Food Network has given all sorts of unreasonable expectations
to a lot of kids who think they will be the next big star right out of
culinary school, even though they have never worked anywhere. I think
culinary school without prior work experience is fairly worthless.

We have a local community college with a culinary school, but we have only
had one baker who was an alum. I would agree that they are training pastry
chefs more than bread bakers. Unfortunately, we have never been able to
develop a good working relationship with them, although we have tried.

We have a line cook who has been attending culinary school part time while
working here 30 hours/week. He was top of his class, and we are promoting
him to sous chef. I think he is getting way more out of culinary school
than people who go straight from HS, without any work experience. We also
had one girl who worked here for six months after HS because she wanted to
go to an expensive out-of-state culinary school and the school she wanted
to attend required prior work experience. I wish she had stayed at home,
worked with us part time while attending the local culinary school. I think
she would have been better prepared, with a more balanced education, and
she could have paid for culinary school for the most part out of her salary.

We have trained quite a few bakers from scratch. We consider that a
critical function to our success, and we put a lot of thought into how we
do it. Culinary school is way down on the list of things we look for when
hiring.

David Lohrentz
Madison Sourdough
Madison WI

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Shannon Talty <
shannon@...> wrote:

**

Jim -

Great letter . We find the same thing here. The ex-terns and culinary
students do not know anything about baking or even "working with a
sense of purpose".
Very frustrating. This is a great profession if we can just get them to
see it.

Shannon

--
Shannon Talty
Olde Hearth Bread Co.
207 Reece Way #1625
Casselberry, Fl 32707
407-834-8881

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JOHN GIBSON

Jim: As a Baking Educator I agree with everything you write. But here is a thought for you to consider:

In the next few years several thousand veterans will be looking for work as our wars - mercifully - wind down. They understand "manual labor", they can be passionate about what they do, they know how to "shut up and work," and they understand honor and loyalty. There are a number of excellent Veteran organizations in RI that can help you access this labor pool. Give them a try.

Each semester when my class starts I show the students a sign that is over the employee's entrance to a local BMW dealership. I like the thought.

"IF YOU DO NOT ENTER HERE FIRED WITH ENTHUSIASM, YOU SOON WILL BE!"

Doc Gibson
Manchester CT., Community College

To: breadbakersguild@...
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:02 AM
Subject: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

This is a genuine question, and maybe a little bit of a rant, but in talking to others recently, it's clear I'm not the only one. I apologize to all the educators and students out there. I mean no disrespect, but I think there is something not being taught in the schools.

A couple weeks ago, I got into a conversation with a friend, mentor, peer and former employer. It seems he has the same concerns on the west coast as I do on the east. When we started 20 years ago, there was no education. The books were just starting to get published (The Village Baker, Bread Alone to name a few). I learned about fermentation reading brewing books, because there wasn't really anything else of substance. At least, published in English. If you wanted to make real bread, you got a job in a bakery, worked hard, put your head down, did what you were told.

Now, it seems there are educational opportunities, presumably training new bakers, but there are no bakers to hire! So, where are they? Who are these people in the schools? And, who are the teachers? Many years ago, an out of town baking teacher came into my bakery. He didn't know how to shape. Literally. To me, that's like a "chef" that can't dice an onion.

A couple days ago, I got into a conversation with a couple bakery owners here in RI. One of them commented that "the schools aren't producing bakers. They're producing pastry chefs." This, coming from someone with a crew of cake decorators on staff!

I currently have an ad running on Craigslist, looking for an overnight packer. A very important job in my bakery, and an easy foot in the door! In many ways, this person is responsible for my stores opening on time everyday. I received no less than 5 emails from kids attending, or having graduated, from a local culinary program. One was interested in whatever work we could give. The other 4 told me in no uncertain terms, that they were not interested in this job, but if a baking job came up to keep them in mind. One actually told me that "this job is not what I've been trained for". Now, over the years, I've had lots of kids in from this school. Not ONE has ever been able to do something as simple as shape a loaf of bread, so what is this training they speak of? I have a few graduates on staff currently. One has been with me for 6 years and is now running the place. It's not the education. It's work ethic that gets the job! That seems to be what is missing in education. Gussy it up all you want, baking is manual labor. If you don't know how to work, you won't make it in this industry. Is that taught? My friend with all the decorators says kids come in expecting to be the next Cake Boss. Huh? Are you kidding?

Whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up? Does this issue have nothing to do with baking and more to do with the entitlement our kids have these days? One of my guatemalens told me the other day, upon hearing about someone giving notice, "they (gringos??) don't care about the job". I don't know about that, I mean I'm a gringo and I've always cared about "the job", but the big difference between the hispanic community is that they aren't looking for the next thing. They're looking to do the job to the best of their ability, as you show them. Come back tomorrow and do it again. That was my basic attitude way back when, and I ended up running the last two bakeries I worked in until opening my own.

Oh, and the guy we'll likely hire for this position? He's a young kid with a high school education. His day job is in a machine shop. He's super excited about working in a bakery, and who knows, maybe, he'll end up a baker. Maybe, he'll just be happy to have a job. I think I'll be posting ads in general labor from now on.

Rant off,
Jim
Seven Stars Bakery
Providence, RI

I too have experienced young people with culinary training who do not
seem to understand the concept of production. My most successful
employees have been those that have started at entry level and learned
skills on the job.

Kathy Keyes
Pagosa Baking Company

Eric Baumgartner

Students forget that some of the top chef's started at the bottom,
washing dishes.

From Chef Gordon Ramsey's Bio

Not having got enough O levels at school left him with limited options
so with no great ambition he enrolled at catering college. His first
experiences of a professional kitchen came from a couple of weekend jobs
- first as a washer up in an Indian restaurant and then washing up in a
Banbury hotel. This was when his interest in becoming a chef started.

Kindest regards,

Eric Baumgartner
President, Owner
BLOEMHOF INC.
Toll Free 1-888-411-2131
Ph.: 1-780-476-2131
Fax.: 1-780-476-7813
E-mail: eric@... <mailto:eric@...>
Web Site: www.bloemhof.com <http://www.bloemhof.com>
Knead Help?

From: breadbakersguild@...
[mailto:breadbakersguild@...] On Behalf Of kathy
Sent: May-11-12 10:39 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
Subject: Re: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

I too have experienced young people with culinary training who do not
seem to understand the concept of production. My most successful
employees have been those that have started at entry level and learned
skills on the job.

Kathy Keyes
Pagosa Baking Company

Franklin Van Volkinburg

I think the topic of "Where are all the Bread Bakers" is one with perhaps a few different issues. Bread baking is definitely a lifestyle choice and the ones who choose it are ones who "have to have to do it". While I am certain that what is taught in culinary schools is a great foundation for becoming a baker, you can't replace experience as a teacher. How do you teach in school that baking bread is done usually at somewhat ant-social times of the day, involves a large amount of physical labor, and really doesn't pay all that much?

At my last job as bakery manager, I came up against the same question, "Why is it so hard to hire good bread bakers?" In a fair sized town that supports a lot of bakeries. We would get all sorts of applicants from pedigreed culinary schools and people just off the street.I show them the bakery, whatI do everyday, tell them whenI work (we had the luxury of starting at midnight), describe physically what it's going to be like, ask a lot of questions and then just make up your mind that whoever you get, you're going to have to spend a long time training. The people who work out really surprised me.

You can't teach work ethic, and if they are the ones who "have to have to do it", they'll have it.

Frank VanVolkinburg
Owner/Baker of the soon to be opened Village Bakery
Montour Falls, New York
607 742-9733

Proud of the years I spent learning (what I know of) this craft, and extremely grateful to the many people who taught me along the way.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin Barnett

As an educator, and previously a bakery owner for 25 years, I agree and
commiserate with everything you say!

I wish I knew the answer. We were just in France. The apprentices there
spend 2 weeks on the job and 2 weeks in school for a minimum of 3 years
and up to 5 years. The school is paid for by taxes that ALL bakery
owners pay. There is no such thing as an uneducated baker in France.

First thing I tell my students is that in real life they will not make
sugar and chocolate center-pieces. What will determine success is
consistent, efficient, clean production....weather they are making bread
or pastries.

I scream at them that there is no such thing as a one armed baker when
they are rounding buns with one hand!

Furthermore, educators are just contracted to deliver the program that
the funders think that industry wants. As a publically funded
institution the Govt dictates what they think the curriculum is with
advice from industry. Problem is whenever there are Trade Advisory
Meetings they are poorly attended, so the delegates that do show up are
usually in-store bakery operators and large industrials, the type that
do not need well-rounded journeyman bakers. Funding gets cut, content
gets diluted, quality of graduates goes down.

So if you want to change things get on your local Advisory Committee and
lobby for it. Last Trades Advisory meeting we had only 1 baker showed
up)

We have recently doubled our enrollment.....my friends in the local
industry are still crying to me that they can't hire anyone.

In North America (and UK and Australia) we do not have a willingness to
train (nor do we respect) trades-people. Plenty of estheticians and
computer nerds though!

Have you read Shop Class as Soul Craft? I think you will enjoy it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/books/review/f*ckuyama-t.html?pagewante
d=all

Cheers

Martin Barnett

Instructor/Chair,

Professional Baking and Pastry Department,

Culinary Institute at Vancouver Island University,

Malaspina Campus,

900 5th St. Nanaimo BC Canada,

V9R 5S5 Tel. 250 740 6114 Fax. 250 740 6404

http://www.viu.ca/educationabroad/Baking.asp
<http://www.viu.ca/educationabroad/Baking.asp>

http://bakedinaustralia.blogspot.com/
<http://bakedinaustralia.blogspot.com/>

http://www.mala.ca/baking/index.asp
<http://www.mala.ca/baking/index.asp>

From: breadbakersguild@...
[mailto:breadbakersguild@...] On Behalf Of Eric Baumgartner
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 9:52 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
Subject: RE: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

Students forget that some of the top chef's started at the bottom,
washing dishes.

From Chef Gordon Ramsey's Bio

Not having got enough O levels at school left him with limited options
so with no great ambition he enrolled at catering college. His first
experiences of a professional kitchen came from a couple of weekend jobs
- first as a washer up in an Indian restaurant and then washing up in a
Banbury hotel. This was when his interest in becoming a chef started.

Kindest regards,

Eric Baumgartner
President, Owner
BLOEMHOF INC.
Toll Free 1-888-411-2131
Ph.: 1-780-476-2131
Fax.: 1-780-476-7813
E-mail: eric@... <mailto:eric%40bloemhof.com> <mailto:
eric@... <mailto:eric%40bloemhof.com> >
Web Site: www.bloemhof.com <http://www.bloemhof.com>
Knead Help?

From: breadbakersguild@...
<mailto:breadbakersguild%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:breadbakersguild@...
<mailto:breadbakersguild%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of kathy
Sent: May-11-12 10:39 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
<mailto:breadbakersguild%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

I too have experienced young people with culinary training who do not
seem to understand the concept of production. My most successful
employees have been those that have started at entry level and learned
skills on the job.

Kathy Keyes
Pagosa Baking Company

Eric Baumgartner

My father had this problem 40 years ago and still the same problem
today.

You can spend months training someone and then they leave on a whim or
because the guy down the street pays 50 cents more.

You cannot bind someone into an apprenticeship contract like they can in
Europe

Kindest regards,

Eric Baumgartner
President, Owner
BLOEMHOF INC.
Toll Free 1-888-411-2131
Ph.: 1-780-476-2131
Fax.: 1-780-476-7813
E-mail: eric@... <mailto:eric@...>
Web Site: www.bloemhof.com <http://www.bloemhof.com>
Knead Help?

From: breadbakersguild@...
[mailto:breadbakersguild@...] On Behalf Of Martin Barnett
Sent: May-11-12 11:57 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
Subject: RE: [breadbakersguild] Where are all of the bakers?

We have recently doubled our enrollment.....my friends in the local
industry are still crying to me that they can't hire anyone.

In North America (and UK and Australia) we do not have a willingness to
train (nor do we respect) trades-people. Plenty of estheticians and
computer nerds though!

Have you read Shop Class as Soul Craft? I think you will enjoy it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/books/review/f*ckuyama-t.html?pagewante
d=all

Cheers

Martin Barnett

Instructor/Chair,

Professional Baking and Pastry Department,

Culinary Institute at Vancouver Island University,

Martin said:

First thing I tell my students is that in real life they will not make
sugar and chocolate center-pieces. What will determine success is
consistent, efficient, clean production....weather they are making bread
or pastries.

I scream at them that there is no such thing as a one armed baker when
they are rounding buns with one hand!

Haha. Thanks for that Martin. I only growl when my new bakers use one
hand and think that maybe I'm a hard-a**.

My mantra for the past 4 months has been Quality With Efficiency. I'm
surprised how my bakers think (or don't) about getting more efficient with
our production. Maybe they just can't see the things I see but we're
slowly carving large chunks of time out of the daily schedule, without
rushing around either.

Mark

==============================

Mark Dyck
Orange Boot Bakery
Regina, Saskatchewan

Learn more at: http://orangeboot.ca/
Or on Facebook at http://facebook.com/orangebootbakery

Janice

Jim,
Would you consider opening a bakery on the New Jersey shore? I'll work anytime :o)

Janice
SHB with FCI Int'l Bread Intensive Certificate
Leonardo, NJ

Janice from the iPhone

Roland Sajor

before I read everyone else's post I just want give my 2 cents in terms of a student's perspective.

I'm about the graduate in my Culinary Arts degree. I don't have the baking and pastry degree which from my perspective I would think more graduates would be coming from. Though throughout my experience and life lessons, long story short to answer your question - that isn't taught in our schools. To elaborate more on it. I see the classes designed as proper techniques this and that. Sure there are short-cuts and loop holes but while we're in class we do it how we are taught. Say when you make a hollandaise for an example, sure you can do it in a blender, saves you a good 20-30 minutes, though while in class you do it by hand, so as a student you have a better understanding of what is going on and such. They don't teach us short cuts in school so if you show us you're way we'll most likely want to do it the "right" way or the way we learned it in school until we understand how more efficient your way is.

I think I remember talking to a few chefs back when I were in my community college days and we all agreed that going to school gives us a better chance at getting the better positions, it's all about money right? Also even if you start from the bottom up, it may take you 4+ years to get to the top, but you're only limited to that particular bakery or work environment. While attending school you get the experience from many different chefs which means that many different work ethics and environments. Students go through internship, they learn a whole new work environment. Students start school dreaming that they are going to open up their own bakery or restaurant or business. But in my own experience and seeing the numbers of how they work, that may not be a real thing to come across. Bread bakeries most of their money off whole sale, while cakes and pastries are more directed towards retail.

I've actually been applying to some bread bakery positions close to where I am, and to be honest, not to offend anyone in anyway, I want to be proud of the product that I make and work with. We all seen good product and product we weren't happy with. But when people don't see eye to eye in terms of good product that makes me want to run the other way. Sure, getting the experience of running a bakery all by my self would be a dream job however the job I can appreciate, be proud of, and know I rather be working than getting wasted with a bunch of kids that don't have jobs.

-Roland

As a former manager and baking/pastry educator I agree with everything that
has been said.
I think the core of the issue revolves around several factors:

1) Baking is hard work that requires training, dedication and patience.

2) Most culinary students nowadays in the US receive as little training as
possible (running a cooking or baking/pastry class is a lot more expensive
than a lecture only class, so the more time you spend in a classroom the
more money the school makes!). In France, the majority of bakers/pastry
cooks/cooks receive a public education. Taxes pay for the cost of their
education so there is more emphasis on learning the craft, not on how can
we cut cost everywhere so that the school makes more money (why have 6-hour
long classes when you teach the "same amount" of material in the same
number of 5-hour long classes?).

3) Most culinary students nowadays lack passion. They all watch the Food
Network and dream they are going to be the next TV chef. And a lot of the
for-profit culinary school just play along at least when they try to enroll
the students. Then the instructors have to try to bring the students back
down to earth. I remember a graduation ceremony a couple years ago when
one of the students I had in class was wearing his school chef jacket, but
instead of a name tag, he had had his jacket embroidered with "Chef XYZ".
He had never worked in a real professional kitchen, except for his 8 weeks
internship during which most of his time was spent cleaning and chopping
lettuce. How do you teach passion to students that have never had to work
hard at anything in life and have been told since kindergarten that they
are the best thing since slice bread?

4) Finally most culinary students lack patience. Through my time as an
instructor, I really enjoyed when former students would come back to visit.
Unfortunately, a lot of them had called it quits after about a year. A
lot of the career changers had gone back to their former careers because
they did not have to work as hard, or the hours were "normal", or they
would just get paid more. A lot of the students who had opened their own
business after school had failed and had decided that cooking/baking was
not for them after all. A majority of the rest had just decided that
working in the culinary industry did not pay and that it would take too
long and was too hard to reach a position worthy of their time.

Finally, when I was a managing pastry cooks and we were hiring them
straight out of culinary school, I was also wondering "what on earth are
they teaching them there?". But then I joined the ranks of the culinary
educators and realized that the vast majority of my colleagues were proper
chefs with plenty of experience and loads of passion for teaching their
craft. I discovered that they were doing their best to teach them what
they should know in a setting that is far from ideal.

On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Janice <janicehale@...> wrote:

**

Jim,
Would you consider opening a bakery on the New Jersey shore? I'll work
anytime :o)

Janice
SHB with FCI Int'l Bread Intensive Certificate
Leonardo, NJ

Janice from the iPhone

--
Eric Guilbert
"Save the earth it's the only planet with CHOCOLATE!"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

spbernitt

Well I must honestly pipe up a bit as I've been reading responses all over the map. To give ya some background, I went to school for a BFA, have worked a number of jobs over the years ranging from forensics technician, maintenance, frame designer, computer guru (instructor encompassed in there), and finally baker. From the student standpoint I can tell you I had a somewhat hard time even getting a foot into the door as most of the bakeries where I am are either "family" owned which means you have to be family to work there or a corporate chain (Panera). I had to get my start with the corporate chain (out of corporate now), which gave me a few perspectives a lot of culinary students I don't think get in schools. You can't train someone to like getting up 6PM to be at work by 10PM and hoof your butt alone to get everything done by 5/6AM (Panera hours, my current position is 3am till whenever you get done, sometime when the store closes). Yeah, Panera paid ok (by food service standards), but a lot of fellow bakers in my age bracket didn't make it due to odd sleep pattern and well frankly the forfeit of ones social life. If your willing then I would say passion is there, most without it last a few weeks, a year if your lucky.

More post just came in and there a points I agree with culinary training is about technique, in my current program we spend time learning techniques and in terms of baking what is going on in the oven to the breads. But as it was explained to me by my good german baker friend (who gave me the first chase at Panera and taught me to form bread), places like the CIA (not bashing them) will teach you to make a perfect cheese cake in three hours but fails at teaching you how to do it when you need to make 50 of them. Production technique, timing and sense of urgency are things I think you can only get on the job, and honestly schools because they are an academic setting loose this aspect. I had people quit at Panera after one night, on a slow day, just because the job was a lot harder than they thought.

Now the TV influence. Yes, Food Network and its glamorization of the industry has caused a surge of students thinking that it is easy and you make lots of money, and for-profit institutions feed off it, after all they just train you and let you go with the promise of you'll be head chef. I know I've worked so such a place in the IT field. You learn XYZ you'll make XZY and more, even though employers look for years of experience with that training. Is it a completely bad thing? From a point of money and feed dreams and lollipops to people yeah. From a food standpoint and raising the bar, I think it has a positive influence. The younger generation I think forgets that you have to work to get good at something, its not instantaneous. I see this in every field, just because your a doctor doesn't mean your well off, there are a lot that are flat broke.

For the US educational system and parenting. I was brought up in a way I could be anything I wanted to be. But yes there is a lot of pressure for the high paying jobs in computers and doctors and such and honestly a lot people forget these areas have become saturated. The emphasis on going to college is massive and there are a lot of people in college that really don't belong in college, which is where trade schools came in. The US has generally forgotten the trade school and labor work is viewed as undesirable work, forgetting that most countries are built on trades. The people I have met in trade jobs are some of the happiest people I know. I'm glad IT and web development is saturated, it pushed me more toward my passion, baking. If it wasn't for a few bad experiences when I was younger talking to bakers I would of gone in this route sooner.

In conclusion, (I wrote an essay sorry) from the bakery hiring standpoint don't be so easy to brush someone off if they inquire about work they might be looking for a foot in, but be prepared for a lot of people to think the job is like home baking from a box. For the student it's a hard field, you work your butt off for little monetary compensation and you whittle your friends down to your true friends, but the reward of have extreme pride in your work is worth more. I guess it could be one of those jobs people don't understand because they don't see it happen, their sleeping.

Scott Bernitt
Baker, Brewster NY

Eric Baumgartner

Now here is one motivated baker from France http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUuKstAWof4&feature=email

Kindest regards,

Eric Baumgartner
President, Owner
BLOEMHOF INC.
Toll Free 1-888-411-2131
Ph.: 1-780-476-2131
Fax.: 1-780-476-7813
E-mail: eric@...
Web Site: www.bloemhof.com
Knead Help?

Interesting discussion. As a bakery owner for 15+ years I came to terms
with these problems a long time ago. Here is what I have learned:

1) My best bakers have invariably been artists, musicians and nurses.
I trained each from the ground up.

2) Culinary students never want to work the required hours. They quit
after one season. Most quit baking altogether.

3) Bakers need to have a life. My shop has naturally evolved to
eliminate night work. Our earliest hand arrives at 3 to 5 am. Sometimes I
am that hand. This gets noticed.

4) As the market for cubicle work becomes saturated there is a class of
worker who appreciates that good hand made bread produces satisfying,
tangible results. And it cannot be outsourced to the far east. This
translates into job security.

5) "Top Chef" syndrome is alive and well among culinary students.
Aggressive individualism is celebrated. This is directly at odds with the
team mentality required to do well in the field.

6) Most of the young kids I know who go to culinary school do not have
a real passion for the work. For many it is a passive decision. "I've got
to do something.". Students who go later in life, after some work
experience, are the ones with the true passion. They end up owning
businesses.

Greg Carpenter

Proprietor

Crooked Tree Breadworks

www.breadworks.com

Eric Baumgartner

Greg posted

5) "Top Chef" syndrome is alive and well among culinary students.
Aggressive individualism is celebrated. This is directly at odds with
the
team mentality required to do well in the field.

This reminded me of a magazine that was published by a technical school
that had two interesting and related articles.

The front page article was about working in the culinary trade, that
went on and on about the pressure, the pace, the pursuit of excellence
and that students should expect Gordon Ramsey style chefs and bosses who
will push them to their limits and "if you could not stand the heat, get
out of the kitchen" and that being yelled at for underperforming is the
norm and acceptable.

The second article immediately afterwards was about psychological and
physical abuse in the workplace and even within the classroom and
advised students how to not put up with it.

The editors obviously did not relate the two.

Kindest regards,

Eric Baumgartner
President, Owner
BLOEMHOF INC.
Toll Free 1-888-411-2131
Ph.: 1-780-476-2131
Fax.: 1-780-476-7813
E-mail: eric@... <mailto:eric@...>
Web Site: www.bloemhof.com <http://www.bloemhof.com>
Knead Help?

From: breadbakersguild@...
[mailto:breadbakersguild@...] On Behalf Of Greg Carpenter
Sent: May-12-12 10:30 AM
To: breadbakersguild@...
Subject: [breadbakersguild] Re: Where are all of the bakers?

Interesting discussion. As a bakery owner for 15+ years I came to terms
with these problems a long time ago. Here is what I have learned:

1) My best bakers have invariably been artists, musicians and nurses.
I trained each from the ground up.

2) Culinary students never want to work the required hours. They quit
after one season. Most quit baking altogether.

3) Bakers need to have a life. My shop has naturally evolved to
eliminate night work. Our earliest hand arrives at 3 to 5 am. Sometimes
I
am that hand. This gets noticed.

4) As the market for cubicle work becomes saturated there is a class of
worker who appreciates that good hand made bread produces satisfying,
tangible results. And it cannot be outsourced to the far east. This
translates into job security.

5) "Top Chef" syndrome is alive and well among culinary students.
Aggressive individualism is celebrated. This is directly at odds with
the
team mentality required to do well in the field.

6) Most of the young kids I know who go to culinary school do not have
a real passion for the work. For many it is a passive decision. "I've
got
to do something.". Students who go later in life, after some work
experience, are the ones with the true passion. They end up owning
businesses.

Greg Carpenter

Proprietor

Crooked Tree Breadworks

www.breadworks.com

jim

Thanks everybody for the comments, snide remarks and viewpoint, esp. those that emailed off list with your stories. Clearly, this is a problem that goes beyond schools, and straight into the homes. It makes those of us with young children need to work even harder, because I'll be damned if my kid turns out to be one of the snivelling, entitled little brats that applies at my bakery.

The best piece of advise I've read is from the guy that recommended America's finest coming back from foreign lands. Next week, I'll be looking for a way to begin a recruiting process. I can't think of a better way to pay them back for the freedom (and, cheap fuel) that we all enjoy!

And...... I just received an email from a local student. It was thoughtful, respectful and most of all she was applying for the packer position. Maybe, there's hope for us after all. In the meantime, I'm working on the curriculum for the new "How To Get A Job In a Bakery 101" class. This is what seems to be missing. Feel free to email me your ideas for submission:)

1) show up on time for the interview
2) ...

Jim